Discussion:
[KL] Controller USB-MIDI to K2600 DIN-MIDI
Matthew Rubenstein email@mattruby.com [KurzList]
2018-02-01 02:47:56 UTC
Permalink
Hello. I have some MIDI controllers, like a keyboard,
sliders/knobs, etc, that have only a USB Mini-B MIDI connector, that
ordinarily connect to a PC's USB A socket. How can I connect these
controllers to my K2600 (or my K2000, or to any Midi synth) to its MIDI
DIN connectors? I have a cable I use to connect my PC USB to synths'
MIDI DIN sockets, that's USB A at one end and 2 MIDI DINs at the other,
but that's not what I'm talking about - these controllers have USB
Mini-B sockets.
Nick Batzdorf recording@earthlink.net [KurzList]
2018-02-02 18:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:47 pm (PST) . Posted by: "Matthew Rubenstein"
Hello. I have some MIDI controllers, like a keyboard,
sliders/knobs, etc, that have only a USB Mini-B MIDI connector, that
ordinarily connect to a PC's USB A socket. How can I connect these
controllers to my K2600 (or my K2000, or to any Midi synth) to its MIDI
DIN connectors? I have a cable I use to connect my PC USB to synths'
MIDI DIN sockets, that's USB A at one end and 2 MIDI DINs at the other,
but that's not what I'm talking about - these controllers have USB
Mini-B sockets.
Take a look at iConnectivity’s MIDI interfaces. Many of them have both USB MIDI and 5-pin DIN MIDI.

For example, this one: <https://www.iconnectivity.com/products/midi/mio4>

Disclaimer: I used to be on retainer with the company (doing writing - manuals, boxes, releases, etc.).




Nick Batzdorf
Journalism, writing, music, audio
+1818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434
Matthew Rubenstein email@mattruby.com [KurzList]
2018-02-02 18:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the pointer. The iC MIO4 is about $150. I also found
this Hobby Electronics (UK) "MIDI USB to DIN Converter" for about $60:
http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/usb-midi-converter

In either case I'm interested in powering the devices, which require
external 5VDC power supply, from the synth if possible. I don't suppose
I can get 5VDC from the synth's MIDI DIN? If I have a CV type rack
attached, can I get 5VDC from it to the USB/DIN converter? I want the
controller to be at the end of a long USB cable, where there's no AC
outlet nearby, and I'd rather not have a battery power supply to go
dead.


On Fri, 2018-02-02 at 10:36 -0800, Nick Batzdorf
Post by Matthew Rubenstein ***@mattruby.com [KurzList]
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:47 pm (PST) . Posted by: "Matthew Rubenstein"
Hello. I have some MIDI controllers, like a keyboard,
sliders/knobs, etc, that have only a USB Mini-B MIDI connector,
that
ordinarily connect to a PC's USB A socket. How can I connect these
controllers to my K2600 (or my K2000, or to any Midi synth) to its
MIDI
DIN connectors? I have a cable I use to connect my PC USB to
synths'
MIDI DIN sockets, that's USB A at one end and 2 MIDI DINs at the
other,
but that's not what I'm talking about - these controllers have USB
Mini-B sockets.
Take a look at iConnectivity’s MIDI interfaces. Many of them have
both USB MIDI and 5-pin DIN MIDI.
For example, this one: <https://www.iconnectivity.com/products/midi/m
io4>
Disclaimer: I used to be on retainer with the company (doing writing
- manuals, boxes, releases, etc.).
Nick Batzdorf
Journalism, writing, music, audio
+1818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434
david3day@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-02 19:50:33 UTC
Permalink
I am not following your logic here.

Technically, I suspect both the controller and synth will be consuming "end-points" (in principle) drawing 5V rather than supplying it, unless the synth designates a "host USB port". In this case, a powered USB hub will be required between the deivces, in turn powered from the wall. The power will never be at the controller end of the cable in this scenario.

Secondly, in the absence of a "host PC", or a host port on the keyboard, why will the devices talk to one another? USB is not just about cables and power, there is the data routing to consider, and that requires intelligent parsing of data.

Thirdly, and assuming you solve the "host" issue, a long USB cable has physical limits and maximum cable length, beyond which you will experience dropouts. USB works best over shorter runs, especially when expecting high frequency data rates.

Fouthly, "Power over MIDI" is not widely implemented. In the past it provides guitar footpedals with a 9V DC feed, so saving on cabling; sometimes the ports have 7 pin DIN sockets; it can also mean very lower power devices are able to steal some voltage from the MIDI signal itself, provided that the ground is connected, which it often is not. Yes, technically, you could create a supply on your 19inch rack using a custom wired patch panel which adds a 5V DC level - but will the MIDI IN socket the other end support it without a mod? The mod would replace the MIDI IN 5 pin DIN socket with a 7 pin DIN socket and jumper the incoming power to the 5V rail. You would NOT typically run 5V from the IN on the patch bay to the OUT on the controller, which is implied by your desired plan.

It is however not particularly complex to create a custom loom with separate MIDI, USB, and 5V DC feeds, either on a single multicore cable, or several cables in a braid, with tidy heat shrunk ends. Our guitarist's live rig features this kind of cabling for expedient setup times.

Peace.
Matthew Rubenstein email@mattruby.com [KurzList]
2018-02-02 21:07:27 UTC
Permalink
I wasn't clear what I meant by "the devices" in "powering the
devices" (from a 5V source, maybe on the synth's MIDI DIN). I'm talking
about deriving 5V supply from the synth's MIDI DIN to power the MIDI
USB to DIN Converter device (from whichever maker). So the Converter
would be at the end of a long MIDI cable carrying 5V power from the
synth to the Converter, then a maybe 2m long USB cable from the
Converter to the controller.

If the synth's 5-pin MIDI DIN provides 5V I can use at the
Converter, by a breakout adapter at the Converter providing 5V to the
Converter's separate 5V power input socket, that's great. Or if that 5V
isn't usable that way, maybe the answer is a 5-pin to 7-pin adapter at
the synth, with separate 5V power supply injected into the extra 7
pins. Then at the 7-pin cable end at the Converter, a breakout that
extracts the extra 5V power supply connected into the Converter's
separate 5V power input.

Maybe use an output from my CV module at the synth end as the
5VDC power supply, rather than use an extra wall wart. It's a Moog
Mother-32 - does that have a CV out providing 5V that can power the
Converter?
Post by ***@yahoo.com [KurzList]
I am not following your logic here.
Technically, I suspect both the controller and synth will be
consuming "end-points" (in principle) drawing 5V rather than
supplying it, unless the synth designates a "host USB port". In this
case, a powered USB hub will be required between the deivces, in turn
powered from the wall. The power will never be at the controller end
of the cable in this scenario.
Secondly, in the absence of a "host PC", or a host port on the
keyboard, why will the devices talk to one another? USB is not just
about cables and power, there is the data routing to consider, and
that requires intelligent parsing of data.
Thirdly, and assuming you solve the "host" issue, a long USB cable
has physical limits and maximum cable length, beyond which you will
experience dropouts. USB works best over shorter runs, especially
when expecting high frequency data rates.
Fo uthly, "Power over MIDI" is not widely implemented. In the past
it provides guitar footpedals with a 9V DC feed, so saving on
cabling; sometimes the ports have 7 pin DIN sockets; it can also mean
very lower power devices are able to steal some voltage from the MIDI
signal itself, provided that the ground is connected, which it often
is not. Yes, technically, you could create a supply on your 19inch
rack using a custom wired patch panel which adds a 5V DC level - but
will the MIDI IN socket the other end support it without a mod? The
mod would replace the MIDI IN 5 pin DIN socket with a 7 pin DIN
socket and jumper the incoming power to the 5V rail. You would NOT
typically run 5V from the IN on the patch bay to the OUT on the
controller, which is implied by your desired plan.
It is however not particularly complex to create a custom loom with
separate MIDI, USB, and 5V DC feeds, either on a single multicore
cable, or several cables in a braid, with tidy heat shrunk ends. Our
guitarist's live rig features this kind of cabling for expedient
setup times.
Peace.
dan@theluthers.net [KurzList]
2018-02-02 22:21:01 UTC
Permalink
What are these MIDI controller devices, and how in the name of Allah's tap shoes did you manage to acquire the only ones without MIDI? Or are these all just things like pad controllers?

Are you married to these devices so you couldn't get something like a Novation Zero/25/36 SL?

It seems to me your playing surfaces are all USB and if you really need to make long runs, you'd be better served with a USB to Ethernet adapter like this:

https://www.amazon.com/AV-Access-Extender-Operating-Synchronously/dp/B01EV33R8S https://www.amazon.com/AV-Access-Extender-Operating-Synchronously/dp/B01EV33R8S/ref=pd_sim_147_5?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01EV33R8S&pd_rd_r=MWEP73GCVA3RV4E6RD5Z&pd_rd_w=P9M55&pd_rd_wg=UzVok&psc=1&refRID=MWEP73GCVA3RV4E6RD5Z

Then break out the USB to MIDI at the equipment location.
Matthew Rubenstein email@mattruby.com [KurzList]
2018-02-02 23:25:47 UTC
Permalink
They're little 25 key keyboards, pads, knobs/sliders, that kind
of stuff. And a single Allah's tap shoe, pretty useless ;).

I'd like to keep them, I already sank a few hundred bucks into
them and they work well, are small and familiar - and plug into a
PC/DAW easily. I'm not keen on getting the Novation with all in one,
not as flexible though it looks quite nice.

The AV Access USB Extender solves a problem of short USB
cables, but I don't think that's really a problem. I think I can a MIDI
DIN/USB converter for under $100 and use long MIDI cables. Optimizing
that to get 5V to the converter without an extra wall wart is a matter
of using what I've already got, for simplicity and also maybe save a
few bucks.

I think the Hobby Electronics converter and some kind of 7+
wire cable (maybe 3m long) with 5V injector/extractor if I can find
one. And if the Moog Mother-32 CV patchbay has a 5V out I can use to
power the converter then that's the simplest way.
Post by ***@theluthers.net [KurzList]
What are these MIDI controller devices, and how in the name of
Allah's tap shoes did you manage to acquire the only ones without
MIDI? Or are these all just things like pad controllers?
Are you married to these devices so you couldn't get something like a
Novation Zero/25/36 SL?
It seems to me your playing surfaces are all USB and if you really
need to make long runs, you'd be better served with a USB to Ethernet
https://www.amazon.com/AV-Access-Extender-Operating-Synchronously/dp/
B01EV33R8S
Then break out the USB to MIDI at the equipment location.
david3day@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-03 00:09:52 UTC
Permalink
You could build your own, and TBH I think you are probably going to have to consider an Arduino DIY project.
Else I do not see you are going to be able to get the USB "device/s" to negotiate without a host in involved. As soon as you do that, you are going to have to contend with USB bus data, clocking, MIDI protocol,MIDI channelisation, and how to programme that flexibly. Fuelling the DC power will be about your last worry.
I think really you ought to consider popping a laptop in the middle with USB hub, and MIDI interface to the PC.
Best of luck with it, let us know if you get it working.
Matthew Rubenstein email@mattruby.com [KurzList]
2018-02-03 01:39:50 UTC
Permalink
But the Converter (from Hobby Electronics, or from
iConnectivity, etc) does all that, converting from the synth's MIDI/DIN
to the MIDI/USB connecting to the controllers. So indeed fueling the DC
power to the Converter is my last worry, and all that's left.

I'm working on that. A $20 Rocktronics cable that's 7-pin MIDI
DIN to 5-pin MIDI DIN + coax breakout:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/rocktron-5-pin-to-7-pin-rdmh
-midi-cable

If I could find a 7-pin mini DIN F/F gender changer, then maybe 2 of
these plugged to the gender changer would do it. Though the cables are
30 feet each; 60 feet is not just overkill but could easily attenuate
the 5VDC too much, if not interfere with the MIDI (though it's low
event rate from the controllers). I could just chop the 7-pin ends from
the two cables and wire them directly together, but I'd prefer
something that's just plug and play if possible.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [KurzList]
You could build your own, and TBH I think you are probably going to
have to consider an Arduino DIY project.
Else I do not see you are going to be able to get the USB "device/s"
to negotiate without a host in involved. As soon as you do that, you
are going to have to contend with USB bus data, clocking, MIDI
protocol,MIDI channelisation, and how to programme that flexibly.
Fuelling the DC power will be about your last worry.
I think really you ought to consider popping a laptop in the middle
with USB hub, and MIDI interface to the PC.
Best of luck with it, let us know if you get it working.
jon kirch jonkirch@comcast.net [KurzList]
2018-02-03 08:48:00 UTC
Permalink
I'm with ... "let your laptop and a midi interface do the trick" .....
or ... perhaps this ? http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/usb-midi-converter
....I have no experience with this device ... or the company .. but it
came up early in a simple google search.

If you already are using your pc and have your Kurzweils up and running
.... why not just get a USB 3 powered hub for your usb-midi controller (s)?
 ... I use all sorts of older hardware synths / samplers ... using 5
pin midi ... running into my midi interface ( motu express XT ) then I
use an Anker 7 port powered usb hub and hang a bunch of usb-midi devices
off that ..  //// M-audio, akai, all sorts of stuff.

I can use my usb stuff to play the kurzweils ... or anything else
depending on how I have things routed in my DAW ... ( I use primarily
Digital Performer / Live / Protools or Reason ... depending on the project )

The mio4 iConn might also do the trick  ... however ... the midi
interface with / usb hub method would allow you to have multiple
usb-midi devices connected as well as multiple 5 pin din keyboards
connected  ... all at the same time ...

Plus ... you can lock certain keyboards and controllers to specific
tracks or instruments as needed.

jjk
Matthew Rubenstein email@mattruby.com [KurzList]
2018-02-03 22:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Well, my notebook would have no other role in this setup than
MIDI DIN/USB converter, so I'd rather not complicate things so much.
And I don't have AC power close to where I want the controllers. So now
I'm just looking for a 5-pin MIDI cable with a breakout at both ends
like the Rocktron RDMH900 has at one end, and less than 20m (like 3-
5m).
Post by jon kirch ***@comcast.net [KurzList]
I'm with ... "let your laptop and a midi interface do the trick" .....
or ... perhaps this ? http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/usb-midi-converte
r
....I have no experience with this device ... or the company .. but it
came up early in a simple google search.
If you already are using your pc and have your Kurzweils up and running
.... why not just get a USB 3 powered hub for your usb-midi
controller (s)?
... I use all sorts of older hardware synths / samplers ... using 5
pin midi ... running into my midi interface ( motu express XT ) then I
use an Anker 7 port powered usb hub and hang a bunch of usb-midi devices
off that .. //// M-audio, akai, all sorts of stuff.
I can use my usb stuff to play the kurzweils ... or anything else
depending on how I have things routed in my DAW ... ( I use
primarily
Digital Performer / Live / Protools or Reason ... depending on the project )
The mio4 iConn might also do the trick ... however ... the midi
interface with / usb hub method would allow you to have multiple
usb-midi devices connected as well as multiple 5 pin din keyboards
connected ... all at the same time ...
Plus ... you can lock certain keyboards and controllers to specific
tracks or instruments as needed.
jjk
Nick Batzdorf recording@earthlink.net [KurzList]
2018-02-03 23:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Fri Feb 2, 2018 10:48 am (PST) . Posted by: "Matthew Rubenstein”
Post by Matthew Rubenstein ***@mattruby.com [KurzList]
In either case I'm interested in powering the devices, which require
external 5VDC power supply, from the synth if possible. I don't suppose
I can get 5VDC from the synth's MIDI DIN? If I have a CV type rack
attached, can I get 5VDC from it to the USB/DIN converter? I want the
controller to be at the end of a long USB cable, where there's no AC
outlet nearby, and I'd rather not have a battery power supply to go
dead
Nope, sorry, you can’t power a synth from MIDI DIN.

There’s a little power for things like these, but that’s about it:

http://midisolutions.com/products.htm







Nick Batzdorf
Journalism, writing, music, audio
+1818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434
Matthew Rubenstein email@mattruby.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 00:00:34 UTC
Permalink
I want to power the Hobbytronics MIDI USB to DIN Converter,
which takes 5VDC from USB, so max 1A. I don't want to power the synth,
that comes from wall AC. How many milliamps does the synth's MIDI DIN
5VDC supply? Which pin? Can I just split off that pin to use the 5VDC
without interfering with the MIDI signals?


On Sat, 2018-02-03 at 15:43 -0800, Nick Batzdorf
Post by Nick Batzdorf ***@earthlink.net [KurzList]
Fri Feb 2, 2018 10:48 am (PST) . Posted by: "Matthew Rubenstein”
Post by Matthew Rubenstein ***@mattruby.com [KurzList]
In either case I'm interested in powering the devices, which
require
Post by Matthew Rubenstein ***@mattruby.com [KurzList]
external 5VDC power supply, from the synth if possible. I don't
suppose
Post by Matthew Rubenstein ***@mattruby.com [KurzList]
I can get 5VDC from the synth's MIDI DIN? If I have a CV type rack
attached, can I get 5VDC from it to the USB/DIN converter? I want
the
Post by Matthew Rubenstein ***@mattruby.com [KurzList]
controller to be at the end of a long USB cable, where there's no
AC
Post by Matthew Rubenstein ***@mattruby.com [KurzList]
outlet nearby, and I'd rather not have a battery power supply to go
dead
Nope, sorry, you can’t power a synth from MIDI DIN.
http://midisolutions.com/products.htm
Nick Batzdorf
Journalism, writing, music, audio
+1818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434
werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 01:02:23 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:35:43 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:36:48 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:39:58 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:41:54 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:42:22 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:42:44 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:43:10 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:43:30 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:43:46 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:48:33 UTC
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werner schoenenberger sinserli@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2018-02-04 19:52:21 UTC
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