Discussion:
[KL] Re: Strange K2000 keyboard behavior
ccmarsig@IUPUI.EDU [KurzList]
2017-10-30 23:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Sent from my iPhone
Hi all-
I've had a K2000 for about a year now and after moving a few times I finally have the time to dig in and try to learn the ins and outs. I'm having a weird issue with the keyboard as well as the navigations and editing buttons.
If I play sounds on the keyboard via MIDI from my computer everything plays fine. If I use the K2000 keyboard to play sounds they will play for a little bit and then when I press keys nothing happens and then they come in again and then they go out again etc. etc. etc.
Similarly when I am using the navigation and edit buttons they will work, and then not, and then work and then not etc. etc.
Any ideas? I've done a factory reset and no love. It almost seems like when using the keys and buttons the K2000 starts okay and then gets backed up or bottle necked and it stops working and then it clears and starts working again.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
mghall@frys.com [KurzList]
2017-10-30 23:52:39 UTC
Permalink
A few thoughts:

1. Go into Master Mode / Util / Midi, and see if a key or wheel is sending
spurious messages (on a rack, hold Cancel and press a number to generate
key hits, just to show that something happens). Maybe the pitch bend or
mod wheels are busy tweeting?

2. In MIDI Mode / Transmit, turn on the "Bttns" parameter, and watch MIDI
out with some other device, to see if the buttons are acting flakey.
Operate all the buttons to see if they operate ok (no extra messages, no
bouncing, no sticking...)

3. Get into the panel diagnostics mode (press and hold 4-5-6 when running)
and see if the panel scanner is happy and the buttons seem to operate OK
(again, no sticking). When I try it, the line where it shows
what-button-is-pressed is initially blank. Hopefully yours is, too.

4. Look at Master Mode / Util / Voices, to see if the sound engine is
getting swamped with work to do. This should correlate with the Midi
Monitor; as a second place to check. And maybe shows what you suspect -
that the engine is getting overwhelmed.

Good luck!
--
Mike
Hi all-
I've had a K2000 for about a year now and after moving a few times I
finally have the time to dig in and try to learn the ins and outs. I'm
having a weird issue with the keyboard as well as the navigations and
editing buttons.
If I play sounds on the keyboard via MIDI from my computer everything
plays fine. If I use the K2000 keyboard to play sounds they will play
for a little bit and then when I press keys nothing happens and then
they come in again and then they go out again etc. etc. etc.
Similarly when I am using the navigation and edit buttons they will
work, and then not, and then work and then not etc. etc.
Any ideas? I've done a factory reset and no love. It almost seems like
when using the keys and buttons the K2000 starts okay and then gets
backed up or bottle necked and it stops working and then it clears and
starts working again.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Philly Craigslist phillycraigslister1999@gmail.com [KurzList]
2017-10-31 03:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the advice! Following your instructions I've learned:

The K2000 is transmitting midi inconsistently / wrongly. Key presses will
sometimes show up on a midi monitor, sometimes not. Doesn't seem to be a
rhyme or reason as to why. Same with buttons and the mod / pitch wheels.
Also, sometimes a key or button press will show up on all 16 channels in
the monitor.

When I tested the voices in Master/utilities/voices I would get the line of
x's when a key press would sound, getting nothing when it wouldn't sound
and occasionally get a pretty rude tone while the whole screen was filled
with x's. Also, sometimes in this mode the screen would revert back to
asking me what I wanted to show and the text would flash rapidly.

Running panel scanner things got very weird. It would show the name of the
first button I'd push but after that would seem to freeze up and then send
to a totally different screen. I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to do
in this mode or what it would tell me.

The OS is 3.54J. Is it possible for the OS to get corrupted? Do the results
of these tests (though weird and poorly explained... sorry!) shed any light
on the problem?

Also, I checked again and it plays just fine when I'm playing notes on my
computer with the midi out going into the K2000. Weird!
Post by ***@frys.com [KurzList]
1. Go into Master Mode / Util / Midi, and see if a key or wheel is sending
spurious messages (on a rack, hold Cancel and press a number to generate
key hits, just to show that something happens). Maybe the pitch bend or
mod wheels are busy tweeting?
2. In MIDI Mode / Transmit, turn on the "Bttns" parameter, and watch MIDI
out with some other device, to see if the buttons are acting flakey.
Operate all the buttons to see if they operate ok (no extra messages, no
bouncing, no sticking...)
3. Get into the panel diagnostics mode (press and hold 4-5-6 when running)
and see if the panel scanner is happy and the buttons seem to operate OK
(again, no sticking). When I try it, the line where it shows
what-button-is-pressed is initially blank. Hopefully yours is, too.
4. Look at Master Mode / Util / Voices, to see if the sound engine is
getting swamped with work to do. This should correlate with the Midi
Monitor; as a second place to check. And maybe shows what you suspect -
that the engine is getting overwhelmed.
Good luck!
--
Mike
Hi all-
I've had a K2000 for about a year now and after moving a few times I
finally have the time to dig in and try to learn the ins and outs. I'm
having a weird issue with the keyboard as well as the navigations and
editing buttons.
If I play sounds on the keyboard via MIDI from my computer everything
plays fine. If I use the K2000 keyboard to play sounds they will play
for a little bit and then when I press keys nothing happens and then
they come in again and then they go out again etc. etc. etc.
Similarly when I am using the navigation and edit buttons they will
work, and then not, and then work and then not etc. etc.
Any ideas? I've done a factory reset and no love. It almost seems like
when using the keys and buttons the K2000 starts okay and then gets
backed up or bottle necked and it stops working and then it clears and
starts working again.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
mghall@frys.com [KurzList]
2017-10-31 18:17:02 UTC
Permalink
So, we know that the engine is probably good, since it seems to play OK
from external MIDI.

And we know that both the keyboard and panel are funky.

The panel diagnostics just report what control is manipulated, when you
operate it -- just to show that the panel scanner is sane. It doesn't
sound like it is.

You ask: can the OS ROMs be bad? I guess they could, but I think that's a
small chance. Besides, the OS ROMs are not the ones scanning the key-bed
and panel controls -- that's done by a separate microcontroller that sends
messages to the "big" controller.

Maybe it's time to open it up, and reseat the cables going to the panel
and keyboard? Maybe reseat the ROMs, too? Scary stuff, appropriate for
Halloween.

Search for some instructions for how to open up the unit. I think there
were some that came with the new OS ROMs, as well as with the "hard drive
installation kit". I'm guessing those will be on the net somewhere. It's
also covered in the "K2000 K2000R Service Manual" on the web, too. (The
notes for the scanner test start on page 2-11 of that document, and a
different set on 4-2.)

Does it have RAM? Have you tried removing the RAM?
How about a disk drive? Tried removing that?
Any other expansions? Are things better without them?

I'd consider running the diagnostics, but they just check the "big"
controller, and MIDI, and sound generation, and all those seem OK. It
sounds like the scanner has gone wacky. Let's hope it's just cables or
spider webs or dead bugs... (continuing the Halloween theme.)

To check your ROMs, power on the unit while holding the 1-2-3 buttons.
Select 'Diagnostics', then use the dial/arrows to select Boot EPROM or
Setup EPROM -- those will check the ROMs for the "big" controller.

I hope someone with more experience will jump in here with better advice!
Post by Philly Craigslist ***@gmail.com [KurzList]
The K2000 is transmitting midi inconsistently / wrongly. Key presses will
sometimes show up on a midi monitor, sometimes not. Doesn't seem to be a
rhyme or reason as to why. Same with buttons and the mod / pitch wheels.
Also, sometimes a key or button press will show up on all 16 channels in
the monitor.
When I tested the voices in Master/utilities/voices I would get the line of
x's when a key press would sound, getting nothing when it wouldn't sound
and occasionally get a pretty rude tone while the whole screen was filled
with x's. Also, sometimes in this mode the screen would revert back to
asking me what I wanted to show and the text would flash rapidly.
Running panel scanner things got very weird. It would show the name of the
first button I'd push but after that would seem to freeze up and then send
to a totally different screen. I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to do
in this mode or what it would tell me.
The OS is 3.54J. Is it possible for the OS to get corrupted? Do the results
of these tests (though weird and poorly explained... sorry!) shed any light
on the problem?
Also, I checked again and it plays just fine when I'm playing notes on my
computer with the midi out going into the K2000. Weird!
Post by ***@frys.com [KurzList]
1. Go into Master Mode / Util / Midi, and see if a key or wheel is sending
spurious messages (on a rack, hold Cancel and press a number to generate
key hits, just to show that something happens). Maybe the pitch bend or
mod wheels are busy tweeting?
2. In MIDI Mode / Transmit, turn on the "Bttns" parameter, and watch MIDI
out with some other device, to see if the buttons are acting flakey.
Operate all the buttons to see if they operate ok (no extra messages, no
bouncing, no sticking...)
3. Get into the panel diagnostics mode (press and hold 4-5-6 when running)
and see if the panel scanner is happy and the buttons seem to operate OK
(again, no sticking). When I try it, the line where it shows
what-button-is-pressed is initially blank. Hopefully yours is, too.
4. Look at Master Mode / Util / Voices, to see if the sound engine is
getting swamped with work to do. This should correlate with the Midi
Monitor; as a second place to check. And maybe shows what you suspect -
that the engine is getting overwhelmed.
Good luck!
--
Mike
Hi all-
I've had a K2000 for about a year now and after moving a few times I
finally have the time to dig in and try to learn the ins and outs.
I'm
having a weird issue with the keyboard as well as the navigations and
editing buttons.
If I play sounds on the keyboard via MIDI from my computer everything
plays fine. If I use the K2000 keyboard to play sounds they will play
for a little bit and then when I press keys nothing happens and then
they come in again and then they go out again etc. etc. etc.
Similarly when I am using the navigation and edit buttons they will
work, and then not, and then work and then not etc. etc.
Any ideas? I've done a factory reset and no love. It almost seems
like
when using the keys and buttons the K2000 starts okay and then gets
backed up or bottle necked and it stops working and then it clears
and
starts working again.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
dan@theluthers.net [KurzList]
2017-11-09 15:21:01 UTC
Permalink
From what's being described, it sounds like the scanner circuit is getting bad data. There are many issues related to the devices serviced by the scanner, which is why it has two separate diagnostic routines.

The thing is, these don't just "go out", and since the issues are being described from the controllers, panel buttons and keyboard -- but not MIDI -- and that bit is important as the K2000's scanner board communicates with the engine via MIDI over a 31.25K internal serial link (service manual 5.1.1.1), so the fact that MIDI IN data is being serviced properly sort of narrows it down to this area.

Although it sounds counter-intuitive, if I had this unit in front of me I'd want to look first at the power supply section of the audio/power board (combined on the K2000 keyboard) and see if both the +5Vref and +5Vdig voltages are within spec.

Power supply issues account for some of the strangest things.
winking_n_nodding@yahoo.com [KurzList]
2017-11-09 21:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Sound like too many event occurring at the same time within the scanner.

Turn on the midi scope in the master menu and look at what midi events are being generated by controllers such as pitch bend. Here it is 0 to 127. If you are doing nothing the screen should be quite.


Or use the diagnostic for the scanner by pressing 1,2,3 together after a normal start up.

Pitch wheel should have a center at about 127 +/- 4. Outside this range can be a problem. All controller in the scanner diagnostic should go from 0 to 255. Look for any items interfering with each other, ie, when the slider is up does the mod wheel only go up to 90, etc.


The scanner can be overwhelmed, as it handles analog inputs (slider, wheels, after touch, battery voltage, variable pedal) all keys,pedals and buttons, communication with effects and the main engine.
'Hamblin, Scott' scott.hamblin@abbott.com [KurzList]
2017-11-10 04:05:19 UTC
Permalink
My suggestion is to check the power supply. Widespread crazy issues can be caused by the simple things like bad connections in the +5V supply.

Check the big +5v electrolytic capacitor for cracked solder joints.


From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, 10 November 2017 5:32 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [KL] Re: Strange K2000 keyboard behavior



Sound like too many event occurring at the same time within the scanner.

Turn on the midi scope in the master menu and look at what midi events are being generated by controllers such as pitch bend. Here it is 0 to 127. If you are doing nothing the screen should be quite.

Or use the diagnostic for the scanner by pressing 1,2,3 together after a normal start up.

Pitch wheel should have a center at about 127 +/- 4. Outside this range can be a problem. All controller in the scanner diagnostic should go from 0 to 255. Look for any items interfering with each other, ie, when the slider is up does the mod wheel only go up to 90, etc.

The scanner can be overwhelmed, as it handles analog inputs (slider, wheels, after touch, battery voltage, variable pedal) all keys,pedals and buttons, communication with effects and the main engine.

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jon kirch jonkirch@comcast.net [KurzList]
2017-11-10 21:37:14 UTC
Permalink
it might be as simple as turning 'local control' on or off. If it is on
while running midi through your computer you could be creating a logjam
of info. Generally the rule is : If you are using your keyboard 'stand
alone' turn local control on ... with your computer or DAW ... turn it off.

On my K2500 the choices are found under midi > transmit ... the choices
are midi, local ... or .. both.

here is an article from sweetwater about this
https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/turn-local-mode-off-kurzweil-k2000-k2500-k2600/
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